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【中英全译】班农《瞭望周刊》采访：中美国正进行“经济战争”

格隆汇 · 公众号 · 财经 · 2017-08-19 20:40

正文

最近，美国政治杂志《美国瞭望》(The American Prospect)发表了一篇即兴政治电话访谈：美国白宫战略师史蒂夫•班农“坦率”地在诸多政治敏感议题上大胆开炮：“和中国的经济战意味着一切、朝鲜问题压根没有军事解决的办法、白宫里有很多“敌人…… 。”文章一出，全球愕然！

目前班农否认该采访的存在。整件事情目前似乎只有两种可能：要么这个编辑打给了假的班农；要么班农被这个编辑坑了，私下谈话被公之于众。班农目前已经被特朗普炒了。

假亦真时真亦假，因为特朗普与班农这对嘴炮好基友，美国白宫政治迷局更多了几分戏剧色彩！也不得不让我们深思其中各种“内涵”。

下面是这篇采访稿的原文中英对照。

Trump’s embattled strategist phones me, unbidden, to opine on China, Korea, and his enemies in the administration.

“川普的策略分析师给我打了个电话，大谈中美朝问题，以及共和党党内的“敌人”与矛盾！

What follows is the article that likely pushed Steve Bannon, President Trump’s chief strategist and architect of his white nationalist messaging, out the White House door. Robert Kuttner, the co-founder and co-editor of this magazine, never expected a phone call from Bannon; the Prospect, after all, is a proudly liberal and defiantly anti-Trump journal. Nonetheless, Bannon called him on Tuesday afternoon, and on Wednesday, we posted Kuttner’s piece—a careful report of what Bannon said and an insightful analysis of why he said it. You can read it below.

以下就是那篇（可能直接）导致了班农被炒的文章。《美国瞭望》主编之一罗伯特•库特纳(Robert Kuttner)表示，班农是在周二打电话给他的，他万万没想到会接到来自班农的电话。毕竟《美国瞭望》是一本反特朗普刊物。班农叫周二下午和他通了话，周三我们公布了电话内容：

you might think from recent press accounts that Steve Bannon is on the ropes and therefore behaving prudently. In the aftermath of events in Charlottesville, he is widely blamed for his boss’s continuing indulgence of white supremacists. Allies of National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster hold Bannon responsible for a campaign by Breitbart News, which Bannon once led, to vilify the security chief. Trump’s defense of Bannon, at his Tuesday press conference, was tepid.

在夏洛茨维尔事件（近日美国弗吉尼亚州的夏洛茨维尔市出现了白人种族主义者集会，最终导致暴乱发生，一位白人驱车冲进围观群众，碾死一位32岁女性，造成多人受伤。特朗普对该事件所做的发言明显偏袒右翼势力，收到党内外的一致批评）事件发生之后，班农一直承受着要求他辞职的压力。国家安全顾问汉弗·麦克马斯特也认为班农应该为布赖特巴特竞选丑闻负责，在周二新闻发布会上，在对于这位顾问的未来问题上，特朗普言辞模糊。

But Bannon was in high spirits when he phoned me Tuesday afternoon to discuss the politics of taking a harder line with China, and minced no words describing his efforts to neutralize his rivals at the Departments of Defense, State, and Treasury. “They’re wetting themselves,” he said, proceeding to detail how he would oust some of his opponents at State and Defense.

但是，班农在周二给我打电话时，兴致很高。讨论与中国之间强硬的政治关系，更直言不讳表示他正努力把反华的鹰派人士安插到国防部和国务院中。“他们在引火上身”。

Needless to say, I was a little stunned to get an email from Bannon’s assistant midday Tuesday, just as all hell was breaking loose once again about Charlottesville, saying that Bannon wished to meet with me. I’d just published a column on how China was profiting from the U.S.-North Korea nuclear brinkmanship, and it included some choice words about Bannon’s boss.

不得不说，当我在周二中午收到班农助手的电子邮件是惊讶的，这让我在夏洛茨维尔事件之后再次感觉整个世界都乱成了一片，随后，助理说班农希望与我有些接触！我刚刚出版了一系列中国如何从美国对朝鲜核边缘政策中获利，这包括一些针对特朗普的话：

“In Kim, Trump has met his match,” I wrote. “The risk of two arrogant fools blundering into a nuclear exchange is more serious than at any time since October 1962.” Maybe Bannon wanted to scream at me?

“金正恩，算是特朗普遇到的劲敌”我写道。“由两个傲慢愚蠢的傻瓜引发核战争的风险比1962年10月份之后的任何一个时间段都要严重。”也许班农是来恐吓我的？

I told the assistant that I was on vacation, but I would be happy to speak by phone. Bannon promptly called.

我回复那位助手说：我在度假，不过我很乐意与班农通通电话。然后班农就打过来了

Far from dressing me down for comparing Trump to Kim, he began, “It’s a great honor to finally track you down. I’ve followed your writing for years and I think you and I are in the same boat when it comes to China. You absolutely nailed it.”

没想到，他并未提起这档子事！他开门见山的说：很高兴和你联系上，我看了你这些年写的文章于是想和你谈谈中国问题，你应该会和我有一样的想法，可以写出点什么来：

“We’re at economic war with China,” he added. “It’s in all their literature. They’re not shy about saying what they’re doing. One of us is going to be a hegemon in 25 or 30 years and it’s gonna be them if we go down this path. On Korea, they’re just tapping us along. It’s just a sideshow.”

“我们正在和中国打经济战”大家彼此都心知肚明。他说道；在未来25年到30年内，我们两国中的一个势必将成为世界霸主，而如果我们继续沿着这条路走下去，那很显然这个角色将由他们来扮演。朝鲜不过是这中间的跳梁小丑。

Bannon said he might consider a deal in which China got North Korea to freeze its nuclear buildup with verifiable inspections and the United States removed its troops from the peninsula, but such a deal seemed remote. Given that China is not likely to do much more on North Korea, and that the logic of mutually assured destruction was its own source of restraint, Bannon saw no reason not to proceed with tough trade sanctions against China.

班农说，他可能会考虑中美之间达成某种协议：中国用一些方法使朝鲜冻结其核计划，美国从朝鲜半岛周围撤走其军队，但这样的交易似乎没戏。鉴于中国在朝鲜问题上并不会做出什么实质性的制裁，班农认为没有理由不继续进行对中国强硬的贸易制裁。（美国不应该在贸易问题上软化，以换取中国帮助对平壤施压。）

Contrary to Trump’s threat of fire and fury, Bannon said: “There’s no military solution [to North Korea’s nuclear threats], forget it. Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don’t die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don’t know what you’re talking about, there’s no military solution here, they got us.” Bannon went on to describe his battle inside the administration to take a harder line on China trade, and not to fall into a trap of wishful thinking in which complaints against China’s trade practices now had to take a backseat to the hope that China, as honest broker, would help restrain Kim.

对于朝鲜问题，不同于特朗普“火与怒”的威胁。班农表示：“根本没有什么（针对朝鲜核威胁）的军事措施，忘了吧！要是有人能解决，告诉我！除非有人发明了某种常规武器，让首尔的一千万人在战争的30分钟内就会死亡！我不知道你在说什么，这里没有军事解决方案。他们利用了我们。

班农接着讲述了：在内阁中关于对中国贸易问题的讨论中，他主张对中国采取更强硬的态度，而不是陷入一厢情愿的陷阱。对中国的贸易制裁已经有了些新的结论，希望中国作为诚实的中间人，可以帮助抑制金正恩！

“To me,” Bannon said, “the economic war with China is everything. And we have to be maniacally focused on that. If we continue to lose it, we're five years away, I think, ten years at the most, of hitting an inflection point from which we'll never be able to recover.”

对我而言，和中国的经济战意味着一切”，我们必须全神贯注意这个问题。如果美国持续落后，“不出五年、最多十年，美国就会触及永远无法翻身的拐点”

Bannon’s plan of attack includes: a complaint under Section 301 of the 1974 Trade Act against Chinese coercion of technology transfers from American corporations doing business there, and follow-up complaints against steel and aluminum dumping. “We’re going to run the tables on these guys. We’ve come to the conclusion that they’re in an economic war and they’re crushing us.”

班农的计划中的经济战措施包括：美国将利用1974年贸易法第301条款，来对付中国强迫在华开展业务的美国企业转移技术，并且对钢铁和铝倾销行为提起控诉，我们会采取行动！我们已经得出中美在经济战争之中，中国在冲击我们。

But what about his internal adversaries, at the departments of State and Defense, who think the United States can enlist Beijing’s aid on the North Korean standoff, and at Treasury and the National Economic Council who don’t want to mess with the trading system?

但是他的那些在国防部的内部对手呢，谁认为美国可以支持在北京援助下的北韩僵局，还有财政部和国民经济委员会谁不想混乱的交易系统呢？

“Oh, they’re wetting themselves,” he said, explaining that the Section 301 complaint, which was put on hold when the war of threats with North Korea broke out, was shelved only temporarily, and will be revived in three weeks. As for other cabinet departments, Bannon has big plans to marginalize their influence.

班农说：“哦，他们自己都笑尿了”。班农随后解释了第301条条款（美国1974年签订的第301条条款，班农打算用此条款对付中国），当美国面临来自北朝鲜的战争威胁时，第301条投诉暂时被搁置了，三个星期后才会复苏。对于其他内阁部门来说，班农有很大的计划来边缘化他们的影响力。

“I’m changing out people at East Asian Defense; I’m getting hawks in. I’m getting Susan Thornton [acting head of East Asian and Pacific Affairs] out at State.”

“我正在改变东亚国防部的人员；我正在把鹰派的人调入这个部门，同时我正在把Susan Thornton（东亚以及太平洋事务的负责人）从国防部调走。

But can Bannon really win that fight internally?

但是班农真的可以赢这种来自内部的战斗？

“That’s a fight I fight every day here,” he said. “We’re still fighting. There’s Treasury and [National Economic Council chair] Gary Cohn and Goldman Sachs lobbying.”

“我每时每刻都在与之（其他白宫幕僚）斗争。”班农说，“我们依旧在斗争。这里面有财务部部长和国民经济委员会主席加里科恩以及高盛的游说。”

Bannon explained that his strategy is to battle the trade doves inside the administration while building an outside coalition of trade hawks that includes left as well as right. Hence the phone call to me.

班农解释说，他的策略是从行政手段上发动贸易战争的同时，建立一个包括左派和右派在内的外界贸易鹰派联盟。所以打电话给我。

There are a couple of things that are difficult about this premise. First, to the extent that most of the opponents of Bannon’s China trade strategy are other Trump administration officials. If anything, it gives his adversaries ammunition to characterize Bannon as unreliable or disloyal.

要想完成班农所设想的，有很多困难的地方。首先，班农的中国贸易战策略最大的反对者是特朗普政府里的其他官员们。班农的对手们把班农描述成一个不值得信赖不忠诚的人。

I asked Bannon about the connection between his program of economic nationalism and the ugly white nationalism epitomized by the racist violence in Charlottesville and Trump’s reluctance to condemn it. Bannon, after all, was the architect of the strategy of using Breitbart to heat up white nationalism.

我询问了班农关于他的经济民族主义和在弗吉尼亚爆发的种族暴力导致的丑陋的“白人至上”之间的关系，以及特朗普对这种“白人至上”主义的不谴责。班农，实际上是利用其旗下的BreitBart新闻网站来让“白人至上主义”在全国升温.

He dismissed the far right as irrelevant and sidestepped his own role in cultivating it: “Ethno-nationalism—it's losers. It's a fringe element. I think the media plays it up too much.”

班农否定了极右主义，认为他并没有刻意的培养极右主义：“民族国家主义的人都是失败者。这是一个边缘因素。我认为媒体对这个词太过于敏感了。

“These guys are a collection of clowns,” he added.

班农补充道：“那些人（媒体）就是一群跳梁小丑。”

“The Democrats,” he said, “I want them to talk about racism every day. If the left is focused on race and identity, and we go with economic nationalism, we can crush the Democrats.”

“民主党（左派）”，班农说道：“我希望他们每天都在讨论种族主义。如果左派只关注于种族和身份的一致性，我们（暗指右派）就会选择与经济民族主义挂钩，然后我们可以彻底击垮民主党。”

I had never before spoken with Bannon. I came away from the conversation with a sense both of his savvy and his recklessness. He is going about his business of infighting, and attempting to cultivate improbable outside allies, to promote his China strategy. His enemies will do what they do.

在此之前我从来没有和班农交流过。通过谈话，我可以感受到他的悟性和鲁莽。他将会遭受商业上的暗斗，同时试图培养不可能实现的外部盟友来推广他的中国策略。他的敌人将会竭尽全力的阻止他。

Either the reports of the threats to Bannon’s job are grossly exaggerated and leaked by his rivals, or he has decided not to change his routine and to go down fighting. Given Trump’s impulsivity, neither Bannon nor Trump really has any idea from day to day whether Bannon is staying or going. He has survived earlier threats. So what the hell, damn the torpedoes.